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Characters' gender

Hi everybody!

After making a few researches, I could notice in the Japanese wiki that Kirby's and Meta Knight's genders were set as "unknown" (Magolor's gender hasn't been defined either). Also, I have been pretty surprised to notice that for all these characters, many Japanese fans made female personifications of them.

I am aware of the use of that pronoun "he" in the American version (and the following translations), of all these clues suspecting Kirby's gender to be male, but I'd suggest that we rather set "Unknown" for all these characters, instead of setting "male" as gender per default, in order to consider all kind of view and to not favor any of both genders. I don't know what you think about it...

references: http://ja.kirby.wikia.com/wiki/%E3%82%AB%E3%83%BC%E3%83%93%E3%82%A3
http://ja.kirby.wikia.com/wiki/%E3%83%A1%E3%82%BF%E3%83%8A%E3%82%A4%E3%83%88
http://ja.kirby.wikia.com/wiki/%E3%83%9E%E3%83%9B%E3%83%AD%E3%82%A2

Zeonit (talk) 15:47, January 13, 2014 (UTC)

The Anime in the Japanese version has referred to both Meta Knight and Kirby constantly as 彼, a male pronoun meaning *He*, *His*, and/or *Him*. In fact, Masahiro Sakurai himself even worked on the Anime! --Vaati the Wind Demon Vaati Jigglypuff. 16:14, January 13, 2014 (UTC)


Hello, there. I think I have read 彼 for both genders actually, even though it can also mean "boyfriend" while kanojo can more explicitly mean "she" or "girlfriend". I still see confusion among the Japanese forums concerning their genders so I thought that could be revealing enough to say it still seems to be debated over there. Zeonit (talk) 16:40, January 13, 2014 (UTC) Zeonit 
http://kotobank.jp/jeword/%E5%BD%BC?dic=pje3&oid=SPJE00873300. It is *Mainly* used on *Males* and *Rarely* used on *Females* who are tomboyish, but I don't think they would add that confusion in such a case. However, this is an English Wiki, we go with the English Official stuff. --Vaati the Wind Demon Vaati Jigglypuff. 17:14, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
Meta Knight's gender is also listed as "unknown" in Japanese material? That's news to me. There's already a note on the Kirby page about this - maybe that could also extend that to the Meta Knight or even Kirby species articles if an official, non-wiki Japanese profile can be found as a source? (Either way, these characters are often referred to with masculine pronouns in English translations, so this wiki primarily lists the gender they're identified with in English sources - although I don't believe there should be anything against noting this as an aside if it's official information, given it's still a Japanese series first and foremost and changes are bound to happen in localization.) LinkTheLefty (talk) 17:44, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
Vaati > I guess it's like in English "Kare" may be used as a pronoun per default. Even though I've been told by Japanese folks that it was used for both genders. Oo"
Link > Eh yeah, I also discovered that recently. And I found that pretty interesting so I thought I could maybe bring that up. =)
Zeonit (talk) 17:55, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
In the story and instuction manuals of Kirby's Adventure and Kirby: Nightmare in Dream Land, isn't Kirby referred to as a "little boy"? Kirpow (talk) 21:16, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
Basically, there's more references to Kirby being male than there are references to ambiguous gender and nothing I can think of that blatantly refers to Kirby as female, thus we refer to Kirby as a "he". --Giokutalkuser 21:19, January 13, 2014 (UTC)

Yep! Whenever other characters talk about Kirby they usually say "he". Just reference KSSU for that, specifically the games Revenge of the King and Revenge of Meta Knight. Plus, I thought Meta Knight was referred to as "Sir" Meta Knight in the Japanese dialects of KSSU? Even in the anime they refer to Meta Knight and Kirby as "he" or "him". I don't really know what to say about the Japanese fan art...Kirby does sound, mainly because of his female voice actor, and look rather feminine. It'd be easy to mistake him as a female character upon first glance, or if you previously knew nothing about the series. Meta Kirby52 Kake-1- It's all mine! 21:44, January 13, 2014 (UTC)

Uh-huh. Kirby Super Star Ultra tutorial: "he's a pretty jolly guy." ;) --Giokutalkuser 21:49, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
Well, I guess we are mostly talking about the translation. But it seems like the whole Wiki is based on the American translation (even though "he" is usually used for males but also as a pronoun per default visibly), so I won't really debate on this. I guess if that may be confusing, we might have some more explicit information about the character in later games, who knows... ^^ --unsigned comment by Zeonit (talkblogcontributionslogs) Always sign your posts with four tildes ~~~~ !Zeonit (talk) 22:38, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
This can get a little confusing and there should a little more detail in the Kirby article and Talk Page from a while ago, but basically in English gender-specific pronouns are used practically all the time for people, whereas you can get away with it or can be allowed to be more vague easily in Japanese. So since there's no good way of referring to Kirby in a gender-neutral way in English without making "it" seem more like a thing rather than a friendly character, it defaults to "he" (there's only one game as far as I know that specifically refers to Kirby as a boy - in the Kirby's Dream Land instruction manual, but it also gave odd translations like "Bag of Magic Food", so take that as you will). There's at least one official Japanese source that does explicitly point this out: the N64 Super Smash Bros. developer website, which had the designers share tidbits like the choice for Kirby to have no skeleton and actually teasing "could Kirby also be a girl?" So that's basically the gist of it. As for Sir/Lord Meta Knight, the term "Meta Knight-sama" is used in Japanese (at least in Super Star, I'm not sure about anime), which doesn't necessarily point to a gender either - although I haven't heard of there being speculation with Meta Knight since the voice is distinctly deep enough (unless there's supposed to be a voice filter in the mask or something).
On a side note, I remember I emailed Nintendo of America once about this, and I got a response from a representative. I think she said something to the effect of, "we appreciate your interest and would prefer to give just enough information to keep the fans actively guessing, but you never know if this will be revealed for sure in a future title" [paraphrased]. It was a while back, though, and I unfortunately no longer have the original text. LinkTheLefty (talk) 23:35, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
"Could Kirby also be a girl"? First time I have heard of that, to be honest... that's a point... Not exactly sure I understood why he said that though? (If you ever find a link to that, I'd be curious to read :)
Yes, -sama can be used for both gender. As for Meta Knight's voice, I don't think that can really be a problem (I've seen some female characters with a voice that deep in animes, paradoxically, but none were human); however, it's true I think the chances that MK is female are pretty weak (except if we think that's a very mysterious character who can still surprise, who knows...) Then, maybe over the time the creator of the series may have reviewed his conception regarding his characters' gender (or may have thought it would be better to remain implicit as there was a globality of views), as I read somewhere he was more or less interested in checking what's on the Internet (he was looking for suggestions for his new game, Super Smash Bros 4th)
Still interesting that you sent a message to Nintendo of America; I think I also received pretty much the same when I asked them... about the same thing awhile ago. They said we may have more explicit information in the later games. Zeonit (talk) 23:54, January 13, 2014 (UTC)

While we've been talking about Kirby and Meta Knight, I'd like to point out we haven't even mentioned Magolor...I certainly don't know about his gender. Usually, I refer to Magolor with a masculine pronoun (or whatever they're called) simply because the first thing I ever read of Magolor was *SPOILER* "He ends up betraying Kirby..."

Not only did I think from that point on that Magolor was a guy, I also thought he was a pretty big jerk. Still, though, his gender is never explicitly mentioned in any media I've seen before. I'd say officially his gender could be unknown, but I think we just obviously changed it to male for practical purposes. Meta Kirby52 Kake-1- It's all mine! 00:33, January 14, 2014 (UTC)

@Zeonit - Sure! It's mentioned on this Q&A page: www.nintendo.co.jp/n01/n64/software/nus_p_nalj/smash/PostReturn084.html in the sixth one down. Someone compliments the Smash Bros. team, and also seems to express surprise that the character they were playing as, Samus Aran, turned out to be a woman. Then the official response is something like, "Could Pikachu be female as well? Is Kirby also a girl? The truth is wrapped in mystery." So HAL Laboratory (maybe Sakurai) is pretty much saying that since both characters' genders are undefined, that person might possibly be playing as more female characters than just the one they identified on the roster (this was also before Pokémon had the gender system). As for that message I got back from Nintendo - there was a little more to it and there was a rep name, so I'm fairly certain it was a personal reply rather than an automated one in case you were wondering (now I wish I saved it).
@Meta Kirby52 - Wait, are you saying that Magolor isn't described as a male in official English sources? ...Come to think of it, I don't recall the game or manual saying anything. LinkTheLefty (talk) 00:48, January 14, 2014 (UTC)
Oh crap, you're right. Completely forgot his description in the non-EX fight against him. "He's a liar, and a wizard." But the manual, no, I didn't think there was anything in there. Well, until HAL/Nintendo officially announces the character's genders I guess we'll all just have to speculate who's what gender until then. Meta Kirby52 Kake-1- It's all mine! 00:54, January 14, 2014 (UTC)

Again, guys, Kirby is most often referred to as "he". Therefore we refer to him as "he" on this wiki. If HAL (or Nintendo) every officially states otherwise, then we'll change it; but speculation gets us nowhere. So a "he" Kirby shall remain. --Giokutalkuser 01:03, January 14, 2014 (UTC)

Oh, I think my last message came out a little scrambled. What I meant is that while the Japanese Wikia states their genders as "unknown" and we present it as "Male", they're true genders will not be known until HAL/Nintendo officially announce it. Speculation, yes, will get us no where. Meta Kirby52 Kake-1- It's all mine! 01:15, January 14, 2014 (UTC)

Oh, don't misunderstand me either... I think the Kirby character page is just fine the way it is since a small note in the info box directing to his Age and Gender section is all that it needed (it's too well-established that Kirby is consistently referred to as "he" in translation). What I would find interesting is if Meta Knight's gender is also intentionally ambiguous in Japanese, since I think that might deserve a similar side-note if a good source like the Smash Bros. Q&A can be found for Meta Knight. LinkTheLefty (talk) 02:41, January 14, 2014 (UTC)

I always found these "The Japanese version says" debates kinda pointless. Sure, a little side note would be cool, but the Japanese version is maybe 6th or 7th priority when it comes down to what's important in an English article. That's my view, anyway. NerdyBoutKirby KorribleHas a PhD in adorableness. 06:14, January 14, 2014 (UTC)
Oh well, I'm not saying either that we should change "he" to "they", as anyway Kirby is known as a "he" in all the English translations.
@LinkyTheLefty > Thank you very much for the link! I saw there was indeed a reference to Samus, Kirby and Pikachu. 
Reminds me now that in the first game of Metroid, they actually called Samus a "he" in the manual of the game (so I have read in some forums, then that should be confirmed I guess), while in the end the player finally discovered that was a woman. There is also that anime "Aoi no Sekai Chuushin de", released in 2011 (3 episodes only, though...) in which Kirby was personified as the character of "Karvai" and Pikachu as "Pikara" or something. The writer of the original manga wanted to base on the war between Saga and Nintendo, under the form of a parody. 
@Meta_Kirby_52 > Ah yeah, right, Magolor... Well, uhm. I guess we don't have a lot of information about that character as anyway this one is pretty new (only from 2011), but we also have a "he" there. =)
I guess you're right though; we won't know explicitly until their genders will be officially etablished by Sakurai. 
Zeonit (talk) 12:47, January 14, 2014 (UTC)

Amiibo

Should we include a section listing all the Kirby Amiibo figures Nintendo releases? They're more than pointless merchandise; they have an impact on video games. Since SSBU and KatRC make use of them, we should consider making a section for them. Any thoughts/comments/objections? NerdyBoutKirby DK Sig 2 Hey! I found it first, buddy! 01:58, December 21, 2014 (UTC)

I'd be cool with that, but it'd be difficult to find out what they do for every amiibo game they interact with. It wouldn't be limited to just Kirby games. IqskirbyMeta Knight point transI REFUSE! 02:04, December 21, 2014 (UTC)
True, but that's what other web sources are for. I'm not saying we'd do it immediately; it is best we wait a while. I might start a list in my workshop and see what happens. I know that any and all Kirby/Meta/Dedede Amiibo-compatible games will be mentioned in the List of Cameos article. Theoretically, if Cameos stays up-to-date, the list will as well. NerdyBoutKirby DK Sig 2 Hey! I found it first, buddy! 03:45, December 21, 2014 (UTC)
In the future. I don't see a need for such a listing at this point, considering that the only ones released so far is for SSB. It's best to wait to add anything big about that until KatRC is released. Paul2 Wapod Run AHHHH! 21:03, December 22, 2014 (UTC)
We know Mario Kart 8 uses the Kirby Amiibo already. Regardless, I'm glad we've come to an agreement! I'll begin a workshop list posthaste! NerdyBoutKirby DK Sig 2 Hey! I found it first, buddy! 23:49, December 23, 2014 (UTC)

Kiddyland Partnership

Just found this news report: http://www.crunchyroll.com/anime-news/2015/08/12/kirbys-pu-pu-pu-picnic-celebrates-popular-nintendo-character

Do you guys think we should mention it in the trivia like the bubble gum event? They made official artwork for it and everything (which depicts Pierce of all characters). I mean, if it's big enough to be news, we should consider it, right? NerdyBoutKirby Grunkle Stan sprite I did that with my mouth! 02:44, August 13, 2015 (UTC)

Sure. Can't say why not. IqskirbyIqskirbyHi there. 02:48, August 13, 2015 (UTC)

Kirby Café

Do we need a Kirby Café page? It is an official restaurant, and there's a lot of artwork and information about it that can't be fit in a trivia point. The reason I'm not sure about it is because it's not the type of thing we normally make articles on. Any opinions? Paul2 K64 Mumbies spriteK64 Keke sprite K64 Mopoo sprite Wrong holiday. 22:39, November 8, 2016 (UTC)

I'd say we don't, if only because it's sourced in Japan and doesn't have any significant bearing in the 'States as of now. Meta Kirby52 Nowhere To Run Not This Time. 22:43, November 8, 2016 (UTC)
Super Star Stacker and the Satellaview games have never been released outside Japan, yet we have pages for them. Our anime pages also cover the Japanese version of the show. I would support the creation of a Kirby Café page, since it was a major official event that a significant amount of original music and artwork was created for. Auroraareas28 (talk) 23:48, November 8, 2016 (UTC)
True, true. However, the Café isn't a game, which is why I disagree with this move. If this was some form of digital/physical media, I'd be all for it. I'm just against it having its own page, but not against it having some information about it around here. Meta Kirby52 Nowhere To Run Not This Time. 23:52, November 8, 2016 (UTC)
I doubt it'll sway your opinion, but there was a soundtrack CD release of the music that was arranged for the café, as well as other original merchandise. Auroraareas28 (talk) 00:05, November 9, 2016 (UTC)
Huh. Wasn't aware of that. Anyway, let's perhaps wait for others opinion, though I almost certainly feel that at the end of this a new page will be made. We'll see. Meta Kirby52 Nowhere To Run Not This Time. 00:13, November 9, 2016 (UTC)

So I checked the Japanese Kirby Wiki, to see if they even had a page for the Kirby Café. Guess what? They actually do! Paul2 K64 Mumbies spriteK64 Keke sprite K64 Mopoo sprite Wrong holiday. 13:45, November 9, 2016 (UTC)

This goes back to my earlier point. Because it's based in Japan, it would make sense for the Japanese Wiki to have it. I'm currently unsure if it deserves a page on the English Wiki though. Meta Kirby52 Nowhere To Run Not This Time. 14:57, November 9, 2016 (UTC)
I hear your points. I'm uncertain about whether or not we should make this page. I'd like to hear more opinions. Paul2 K64 Mumbies spriteK64 Keke sprite K64 Mopoo sprite Wrong holiday. 15:42, November 9, 2016 (UTC)
I'd be okay with such a page existing since we have a few miscellaneous real-world pages (like Masahiro Sakurai and Makiko Ohmoto). The only issue is deciding what info should be written and what should be excluded. Those are just my thoughts, though. NerdyBoutKirby Mass Return A massive return to form. 18:49, November 9, 2016 (UTC)
I'm totally cool with having this be a page, but as said before, we need to find out what to include and exclude. IqskirbyBeam Machine GunBihm Masheen Gahn! 21:05, November 9, 2016 (UTC)